Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

So I got an email the other day from a judge involved in a different game, I thought it would make a good discussion so here we go. Keep in mind I've removed all personal info, so not as to cause any problems in case the individual posts here.

As for trades, guess what? Before a player can sign in here they must agree to no trading in or on store grounds. Trading requires a business license, we have them kids dont. It works, they might not like it but it works. No trading period. If they talk trade they are out. So if they cheat they are out. Some kids at another store got hurt by this individual. I am sorry that had to happen. But he does not play here all that much, except there are less and less places in town to play and we are the only sanctioned league. So I need to crack the whip like before.

A tad extreme if you ask me, I mean, I guess it's their store and their choice, and if their players will still participate, well, then I guess it works out for that store.

Still, I can't help but feel that this is taking the easy way out, not to meantion that this is a crictical part of the game, seeing as how it's a trading card game. But that's just my opinion.

Edit: I managed to still have my response to the email, so I thought I would share that too.

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Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Lvl-1
Player Management Lvl-1
Tournament Organization Lvl-1
Bandai Naruto Meijin
Bandai DBZ meijin
Pokemon Tournament Organizer

Wow that is harsh! I agree that judges should not be trading when working an event, but the players need to be allowed to trade. Otherwise they have to rely on buying packs and hoping they get what they want. If it is the store owner making that policy then it is most likely because he wants to force them to buy the packs.

If it is a judge then it is just power gone to his head.
One thing that Paul Ross always says during the judge meetings is we are not here to lay down the law and beat players into obeying (ok, I know that is not EXACTLY what he says but it is along those lines). Every time he makes that point I think "ok, so not like Stallone in 'Judge Dredd'... 'I AM the Law!!'"

 

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WoW RK2
VS RK2
YGO RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

I'll go along with your thought pattern. If a store wants to implement this policy they have every right to....but in my mind it's taking away part of the game.

This reminds me of school "Zero tolerance" policies. I view most of those policies as people not wanting to make a decision and then take responsability for the judgment of that decision. Here in my part of Iowa they have a no tolerance policy for weapons. At first glance that seems resonable. When you consider the area though, lots of farm kids who carry pocket knives as a regular part of their work day at home (cutting bailing twine and such things) and that kid happens to forget to take that pocket knife out of their pocket before going to school. Someone sees a outline in their jeans of that pocket knife and the child is expelled from school. Everyone knows this kid wouldn't harm a flea and the weapon was never brought out of his pocket....but there is a zero tolernace policy that is all encompanssing. Was it a wise thing to do to expell this student? Obviously not. Because the administration wants to cover their rear end they use the zero tolerance policy instead rather than making a judgement call. A similar policy is implemented for fighting. It doesn't matter who started it, if someone is violent in an aggressive manner or even if it's defensive, there is a suspension.

In the same way in my mind a no trading policy has similar implications. Who is it really designed to protect? The players or the store owner? If it's suppose to be to protect the players, trading will be done outside anyway. At least if it's done inside others can inform the less experienced player if they're making a good value trade. If it's to protect the store owner, I have to ask, from what? If a parent calls and complains that their child got "ripped off" then perhaps that parent should be accompanying their young child instead of using the store as a baby sitting service...or educating their child as to intelligent practices of trading goods ( a fine life lesson) If the purpose of the policy is to "protect" the store owner...but in reality is their thought pattern on stimulating card sales, well, then in my mind they're defeating part of the purpose of a trading card game and part of the fun and interaction involved. This defeats part of the spirit of the game and I'd have to question the store owner's motives.

Keep in mind here these are just my personal and biased thoughts as a parent of two children who are gamers and as a judge. This is just an opinion, nothing more.

I think the store owner might have a bit of a misunderstanding about the law. He seems to think that trading one card for another card requires that they have a business license. Granted, I'm not a student of Illinois law, but I find it hard to believe that a transaction where no money changes hands requires a business license.

I'd agree with all these sentiments. The store owner is likely covering his liability to players and parents if a child believes a bad trade has been made. Also, it could be a misunderstanding of the word "trading" as it can be used to describe a shop (i.e. trading products for cash). I know of no legal reason why a person would be unable to barter without a business license. However, if the shop owner does not wish to allow trading, they may forbid it. It would be preferable, though, if they didn't list all of these reasons.

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"Gotta dash. Four things happening. Well, four things and a lizard."

Share and enjoy,
Ryoga

As far as I know there the barter system no longer applies so trading is leagal in all ways as long as its not money being traded for items. I agree with those whom said its harsh and he maybe just trying to move product in his store. Although players still tend to look at the shop if they cant get what they want in trade or can not get the deal they want for it. Thats the owners call on what he allows in his store. The players can look for somewhere else if they want where trading is allowed. Oh well not much to say about that. Stores owners want to make money.

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World of Warcraft Rules&Knowledge Lv2
Yugioh Rules&Knowledge Lv1
Player Management Lv2
The force is with you!!

It does sound to me like the easy way out of avoiding the fallout of trades gone wrong...but not knowing the shop or what the players are like it's hard to say. If they've got a lot of super aggressive sharks, it might have been the most painless solution.

I hardly ever trade, but I don't know as I'd like playing in a shop that expressley forbade me from doing so. I wonder what the impact is on the business itself.

 

Julia

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Julia Hedberg

Regular Jane
I have some certification levels, too.

Well, I got two responses from him so far, though both were disappointing, I think they were both pretty clear. Still, I guess we may be able to make a bit of discussion out of it.

Corey,

I am glad to have made an impact on you. But first let say that we operate a brick and Mortar Tournament store. It is different than just being a TO using other people's venue or a hotel what have you. When we started in this town there was no organized sanction tournaments per se. Just chaos at Books A Million. So we built the store according. If any experience in brick and mortar is helpful that is where we are.

My questions and answers all come from that perspective. As far as I am concerned, I encourage my players to sell their cards on ebay to get the most out of them. I sell most of our cards to our players at 25% to 40% of current ebay prices. We dont sell on ebay and really dont care to. But i cant ignore when some parent says we can get that cheaper on ebay. Fact is they cant only i dont have every card in stock because at our prices they sell out fast. I trade and re sell so that it is more economical for my players. It would be great if I worked a high paying job and did this only on the weekends, but that is not what i do, I work at the store seven days a week regular mall hours.

There is no doubt we are headed for rough waters in Retail. The market report on CNBC this morning is verifying that fact and it is not just the housing market, jobs are disappearing, oil prices are going up and all this affects the markets. I do not advocate anyone do what we do, I merely mentioned it because it is a road less travelled that actually does work as win win situation provided that that is what you want to achieve.

but the thing is, that there are a lot of small businesses, brick and mortar involved in running tournaments and maybe they never planned it that way, but it is what they do now. We on the otherhnd planned it based on our city's needs, the need for organized play supervised and sanctioned. The older players dont have a problem with the rules as long as they dont change weekly and the younger players need solid support and rules, or else why would parents let their children get involved?

What redeemable quality is here they ask? If a player does not like our rules then he can start his own tournament league, using his own capital, but no store should allow the loss of revenues for their store if they see a better way in which everyone benefits. If players are so selfish that they will not help new or younger players then what are you breeding there at your venue? Again what we do is what we do, you cant do it, fine we did not say it would work for you, it wont work for you. But dont call my judgement in to question because you dont like the convictions I hold, I told you it works for this city, it is what was needed here. I am the guy who brought it to bear, if you are thinking of going into a brick and mortar store as an owner do your planning well, tsunamis happen all the time in Retail and the small boats get crushed daily.

Part 2

Dear folks,

I figured you would freak out, but guess what, is this a business or your hobby? If it is your hobby, then fine, but if it is your business then you are losing money. You dont give your customers the authority to sell or trade unless you want to be their customer, while you pay the rent and the electric bill, they trade then sell on ebay. I trade because i am licensed to, my players are my customers, that is the point of the business, to get them in the store to BUY. Unfortunately we are competing against places like Wal-Mart which do not buy the inventory period. They have a pay per scan contract. Which basically means that make 100% pure profit, no theft loss or damaged goods. If Wal Mart is lowering prices everyday of the week to adjust to a rapidly declining retail market share, what are we going to do.

I personally dont care if you want to let people trade, or sell their cards in your space that you rent, that is fine, I am telling you from a business stand point if you buy cards from the public, the public will not buy from you. You may have a store full of kids all day, but at the end of the day you have to be the one with the profit, UNLESS of course this is your Hobby and you like being Santa Claus. I DONT AVOID THE HARD ISSUES, MY BUSINESS HAS NEVER CHANGED LIKE IT OR LEAVE IT. THE GAMES USED TO BE CCG NOT TCG. IF YOU DONT AGREE FINE, YOU HAVE TO START OUT WITH A PLAN AND STICK TO IT. WE HAVE NEVER WAIVERED SO OUR PLAYERS KNOW YOU TRADE WITH THE STORE OR YOU TRADE ON YOUR OWN TURF. AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO RUN TOURNAMENTS INSIDE WAL-MART, THANKS A LOT FROM THE HOBBY STORES OWNERS OF AMERICA.

Well I guess those two emails explain a lot, though personally I have a different view on how a business should be run, as I plan to start my own one day, though that's a discussion for e-mail.

Still, I can only hope he treats his customers with more repect then he did myself.

But why is it that people can't have a mature discussion anymore?

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Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Lvl-1
Player Management Lvl-1
Tournament Organization Lvl-1
Bandai Naruto Meijin
Bandai DBZ meijin
Pokemon Tournament Organizer

Frankly, this store owner sickens me.  My local Brick and Mortar store has been around for over fifteen years.  The reason the store succeeds is because the store owner knows that it is the PLAYERS of the games that bring in the money.  He does not allow people to sell in his store.  Everyone that plays there respects that.  You wouldn't go to walmart and try to sell stuff you baught somewhere else now would you? 

However, banning trading is just selfish, and I would recommend that anyone who frequents this store should instead find a local restaurant that is willing to let people come in play.  I used to run Star Wars CCG tournaments in a local Pizza Hutt where they served a buffet.  This store owner is preventing his TCG players from enjoying one of the largest parts of playing TCG game.  Trading is what enables players to get the cards they NEED in order to build competative decks, especially those players that don't have thousands of dollars to throw into a hobby. 

I'm sure alot of people realize that card games are played by a vast majority of young people.  These young people don't typically have the income needed to just buy all of the cards they need. 

Just my $0.02 worth.

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William C. Zobac
Lubbock, TX
WoW RK 1
PM LV 1

ok guys listen to this at the store i judge at we do not allow trading under these circumstances

if it is during tournament play(dont need binders opened while people are playing tournaqment play or people changing their decks....)

if there is a person that is kind of a small age such as 10 and under( too vulnerable easily ripped off)

and in order for the players to get around this they need to go out in the parking lot or off of the stores property because we do not feel that enraged parents should hold us accountable for their kid getting a bad trade and then regretting it later although this may be a rare circumstance it is a chance we are not willing to take.

as for selling cards we do not permit that due to the fact it is competeing with the store and they need a buisness license to do that, but the outside of the store policy applies with this restriction too.

let me know what you think

i agree with both side of the arguement about the restrictions that should be put on trading there are limits on how strict you should be

thanks!

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
LvL 1 Player Management
I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland

I agree that there should be no selling of product in any form in competition with the store.  However, trading is a major part of any Trading Card Game.  Players are responsible for knowing the value of their cards (wether this is monetary value based a price guide magazine IE. Scrye or just the play value based on a person's opinion.)  If two people are trading and both agree to a trade, that is their choice.  If you as a TO and/or player believe you should step in and help those who are younger and don't believe someone should make a trade, by all means.. But banning of trading is completely bogus and any store or any TO that restricted me from TRADING while playing a TRADING card game would loose my business and/or respect.

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William C. Zobac
Lubbock, TX
WoW RK 1
PM LV 1

The age discrepency rule on trading definently needs to depend on your player base. I attend two locals, one has a very honest and friendly atmosphere. We don't let any kids who show up get ripped off, oftentimes we'll encourage the trade to be slightly in the kids favour to encourage them to come back.

The other local tends to be a little more unfriendly, needless to say I don't attend it regularly, but it is more competitive. I don't even like pulling out my trade binder at this store, and I'm 23. The store owner does keep an eye out for the younger kids and will enforce a "trade back" if he feels the kid was ripped off. Generally speaking any sort of trade restriction in a store based on age won't help it too much, if they aren't allowed to trade they will walk outside where the kid will probably end up getting ripped off even worse, or the cards will get stolen. It's better to educate your players about trading fairly and how it benefits everyone over ripping off little kids.

As a player, if you see a kid getting ripped off, speak up. Say something to the kid, the parent and/or the store owner. Sure your friend may get mad at you, but chances are the cards they will end up giving up won't be that big a deal to them anyways and it will make the kid happy and the parents happy.

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Your Friendly Neighbourhood Canadian Judge!
YGO RK L3
VS RK L2
WoW RK L1
PM L2

Having read both sides of this, I have to retract somewhat my earlier statement and those that are coming down harsh on him need to go back and reread what he is saying. He does not allow them to trade with other players, however he does allow them to trade with the store.

This is a business model that while more restrictive than most local stores works for him. Players are not prevented from getting the cards they want, they are just limited in who they can get them from. I have been to stores that have similar policies and all works out fine. The ones I went to if you wanted to sell your cards, they bought them at a set price, if you wanted to trade for other cards, your cards were given a higher value. Used books stores ahve bought and traded books using this business model for decades.

Since the players can get the cards they want by trading with the store, the only thing it really means to the players is that they don't have to worry about getting ripped of by a shark. Not all stores can implement this, especially if they have always allowed open trading, but the concept has it's merits and it works for him.

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WoW RK2
VS RK2
YGO RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

Can they get the cards they want...or just the cards that the store is willing to trade for? Most stores that will accept cards on trade have a very limited list of cards that they'll accept on trade, namely, those they know they have a very good chance or reselling (current meta favorites) This leaves few options other than the parking lot for those who wish to trade for something to complete a collection or a deck that differs from the same thing we see on a day to day basis.

I think this conversation has gotten away from player management and is probably better suited to the general forums. This is purely opinion based discussion. Though I don't agree with the practice the store owner has every right to do so and we as judges and volunteers have no control in the matter.

we generally have atleast 3-5 kids that are 13 or under and alot of the people will rip people without a blink of an eye many of them have tried to rip me and i am the judge and an authority figure -.- imagine what they do to unexpecting little kids. i try to help as much as possible but one person can only do so much :)

thanks!

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
LvL 1 Player Management
I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland